A Conversation With...Judi Forbis of Ansata Arabian Stud

The story of Don and Judi Forbis sounds more like the stuff of Hollywood than rural Arkansas. It's a tale that begins with high adventure — horse racing amid the Turkish deserts (with Judi as jockey, the first woman and the first American to do so) — and includes the creation of a major breeding farm that has helped bring the Egyptian Arabian to international prominence. It all began in 1958, when the two met and married in Turkey, then shortly thereafter imported their first Egyptian Arabian stock to Oklahoma (where Don's father cared for them while Don and Judi continued their Middle East adventures for another decade and became experts in the history of the Egyptian Arabian along the way).
The dynamic duo has spent the past four and half decades devoted to producing the finest Egyptian Arabians in the country. They've spent the past two decades at their 400-acre farm, Ansata Arabian Stud, in Mena. The idyllic setting boasts separate barns for showing, breeding and foaling, along with spectacular vistas and eight sprawling pastures (most of the horses are turned out except during foaling). During the high-rolling '80s, Ansata was home to more than 300 horses (including many international boarders) and a resident vet. These days, the numbers are much smaller (between 50 and 80), and the focus is on international sales (clients include the emir of Qatar, Count Federico Zichy-Thyssen of South America, King Hassan II of Morocco and Princess Zeyn Al Hussein of Jordan), travel and publishing (Judi has written a handful of books and is currently working on another).
Recently, Roundup editor Lisa Broadwater sat down with Judi at Ansata to find out the secret to Ansata's breeding success.

Horsemen's Roundup: When you imported those first three horses, it wasn't to breed them, was it?
Judi Forbis: No. We were racing and we loved the breed and we wanted to participate over here in some way. We just wanted to have something to ride and to enjoy. But it was one of those things. I think there are divine appointments in life, and if you're in a place where you love something and have the opportunity to live it and make it a major part of your life, it just happens.

HR: You had done extensive research before you chose those three. How important a role did that play when you decided to breed?
JF: Tremendous. Of course, luck plays a little part in anything, but you need to be in a position to take advantage of it. So we had done a lot of homework.

HR: So, in looking for the right horse for you, you were envisioning the ideal Arabian, period?
JF: Right. We had an opportunity very few people have: to be in that place at that time among the people who were responsible for the breed. And it's not only living with the people; you get a sense of their culture, you get a sense of their appreciation of the the simple elegance that this horse has.

HR: Was that the foundation of what you wanted to create here?
JF: Absolutely. We had a colt and two fillies, and they were just yearlings. But we went to this farm at a time when there was a wonderful director of the stud farm; he was a former Hungarian general and he had a wonderful eye. He'd been there 10 years and had brought the level of the horses up a notch. He inherited something that had been going on there for 150 years, but he brought it up — and we were able to choose exactly what we wanted.

HR: Which was?
JF: An extremely beautiful, classic horse that also was functional. People say form follows function — that beauty comes after function; but it's the other way around: Beauty creates form and function. Because if it's beautiful, it should automatically have the harmony and the functional ability to go with it.

HR: Were you responsible for re-introducing the Egyptian Arabian to the American audience?
JF: I wouldn't say re-introducing. There was a very famous farm back in the '30s owned by Henry Babson. And he did a lot in those days, but then it kind of died out. When we brought these in, we saw what had happened. A few people had imported in the '30s, but the bloodlines had been so mixed up with other bloodlines that we couldn't get back to that nucleus again. That's how we started trying to make people aware of the value of this Egyptian blood, because it's the undercurrent of most all other Arabian bloodlines that you find around the world.

HR: You've been breeding 45 years? Do you know how many offspring you've produced?
JF: I haven't counted. Around 600, maybe more. That's not counting other people's horses by our stallions. Our bloodlines are all over the world. In the last year, we got the Arab world back onto this, through Qatar and Kuwait and Jordan. We've even sent horses back to Egypt.

HR: What do you consider your greatest accomplishment as a breeder?
JF: There's one stallion I've written a chapter about in my new book. He was the son of our founding stallion, Ibn Halima. He was one of those horses that come along once in a lifetime — maybe once in a century: No matter what you breed him to, he stamps it very dominantly. He literally transformed the look of the Egyptian, and many Egyptian-related horses, in Europe and the Middle East. That was Ansata Halim Shah.

HR: Is that what makes a great stallion — one that leaves his mark on every offspring?
JF: Well, not necessarily on every offspring because there are some stallions that produce great mares; there are others that produce great sons and there are others that can produce both. Percentage-wise, there are very few stallions that are so predominant that when you look at something, you absolutely know it's by that horse.
Well, this horse was a homozygous grey, so everything he bred produced grey and it had a look that was similar to his — fortunately, a favorable look.

HR: So is it more important to have a great stallion or a great mare?
JF: Well, great stallions come from great mares. It's kind of like, which comes first: the chicken or the egg? It's a tough call. It depends on what position you're in if you're beginning. It's much more difficult to find a great stallion than a great mare.
If you start small, you start with a great mare. You have to spend a lot of time and energy promoting a stallion; you have to have mares to breed him to — so you're going to have to go out and either buy mares or promote him so somebody else will use him. But you can always breed to what few great stallions there are — and maybe produce one yourself.
Now, not everyone who breeds horses wants to have a farm like this. You have to be extremely dedicated; you really have to know what you're doing. And money doesn't always do it. There are people who have spent millions and accomplished nothing in breed history. And there are others who have started out very small, maintained a relatively small herd and accomplished great works.

HR: The key is the dedication to the breed?
JF: And knowing what you're doing. Dedication doesn't always get it, either.

HR: Is that knowledge instinctive or...?
JF: Well, there is a certain degree of instinctiveness. There are some people who are naturals. There are others who can learn. And there are others who can pay somebody to consult for them and provide it, if they have the faith in that particular person.
A lot of professional people get into this and don't really have the time to get out and travel enough or study enough or spend enough time. And there are always people who get into this as an investment. I went through the crazy times when the sky was the limit, and a lot of people got sold very poor horses for very high prices because it was "an investment."
From an investment standpoint, it's like anything else. I always tell people who are buying a horse, do is your homework. We may not have what you want; maybe somebody else has a different line, a different look, a different opportunity. Spend some time before you spend your money.

HR: What if you're thinking about becoming a breeder?
JF: Get as many books as you can and go to as many horse shows as you can and go to as many breeding farms as you can and know what you like. It's like, it you hang a piece of fine art in your living room, you're going to live with it every day. So do you want a reproduction; something that's cheap, a carbon copy of something that's not really quality? Or do you want something that looks like a Rembrandt? A Monet? A Dali?
What I'm saying is, there are diversities within horses, so learn the bloodlines; learn what produces the look you want to live with. Have a vision. Vision. Patience. Dedication. Enthusiasm. But most of all, you have to have the love of the horse. That is number one. Because everything else follows.

HR: What are some of the toughest challenges you've faced?
JF: It's like fine diamonds: The finer they are, the tougher they are to cut. Sometimes the most perfect horse is the one that dies the soonest. The good ones always find a way to self-destruct or hurt themselves, and the poor quality ones, you could turn them loose in barbed-wire and glass and they'd never come up with a scratch. Sometimes you sell something you wish you'd kept. There are a lot of peaks and a lot of valleys, so enjoy the ride up to the peaks and don't despair when you have to go back down to the valley.

HR: How much did AI [artificial insemination] change breeding?
JF: Oh! It took a tremendous responsibility off the stallion owner. If people bring their mares here, you're responsible for them. We've had 40 to 60 horses from other owners in and out of here at a time. If one gets sick — or comes on your farm with sickness — you're liable; I don't care how careful you are.
Right after we moved here, there was an outbreak of strangles, all across the country. It was a nightmare. I cannot tell you what we went through; we had to bring in temporary pens so we could keep all the horses separated. We had almost 200 horses here at the time — horses from South America and other places — and it came in with an outside mare.

HR: Now do you primarily do AI?
JF: Yes. We do some natural breeding because I personally don't believe in AI all the time. I think we've gotten too far away from nature. But you always give up something to get something in life.

HR: When you don't do AI, do you hand-breed?
JF: Yes; in the barn. Of course, pasture breeding is the best thing that could be happen to anybody. Turn a stallion out with a mare, and you'll find that 90 percent of your horses get pregnant.

HR: Over the years, has your vision of the ideal changed at all?
JF: No.

HR: Do the various trends affect what you do?
JF: Not at all. Not at all.

HR: I would think that would be tough.
JF: Not if you have something that's right to begin with. What we started out with 45 years ago is what all the Arabs have come here to buy because nobody else preserved it. Now, if we had thrown everything we had to the four winds and had just gone after what was fashionable today — a bay horse or a longer neck or what-have-you...

HR: You might not be here.
JF: That's right. You cannot breed horses according to fashion. Being a breeder is like being a great artist: You evolve your quality and your technique, but you don't change your vision.

HR: Did the changing market affect you? Didn't it bottom out for a while?
JF: The market for good horses is always there. But there are times when it's tougher, in any livestock market. You just have to work harder.

HR: Do you sell babies, weanlings, yearlings?
JF: Whatever. It depends on what's replaceable in your herd and what you can afford to sell and how big you want to stay. For example, I sold Halim Shah when he was 14 years old. But we had his frozen semen, and we had sons and daughters of his. And if we hadn't sold him, it wouldn't have opened up the whole Arab world. We sold him to the emir of Qatar.

HR: Is that why you sold him?
JF: Well, they came to us and asked for him. It was opportunity to give something back to that part of the world that had given us something. In fact, Halim Shah's son just won the Nation's Cup in Europe and he's competing in Paris this week.

HR: Any mistakes you've made along the way?
JF: Sure, everybody makes mistakes. You learn by the mistakes you make. Occasionally, we all make a decision that we look back on and wish we hadn't done. A certain amount of this is trial and error. I don't care how gorgeous a stallion is, that doesn't indicate that he's going to be a great sire. You don't know until you get them on the ground. And sometimes a rather plain individual that has the genetic makeup may turn out to be the great sire, where the beautiful full brother that's won every title in the world can't produce his way out of a paper sack. But that's part of the patience.

HR: Is disposition important?
JF: Absolutely. It's all part of the package — you don't want an ugly, ugly horse with a beautiful disposition and you don't want a beautiful, beautiful horse with an ugly disposition. That's one of the things our horses have been known for: Our foundation horse was known as Ibn Halima, which means "Son of the gentle." And he was a very gentle soul. He had fire but great docility. That's something he has passed on through the generations to so many of his get. That's one of the things that has been very important to this farm.

HR: Do you imprint?
JF: Well, we handle young horses. But we try to leave them alone and let the mothers take care of them. They do a better job. They're handled after they're born, they're handled going in and out of the stall, they learn to wear halters and so on. They're turned out and brought in every day.
But I think you can overdo that. You can put too much stress on a baby. I've just seen that, first of all, you really have to know what you're doing. And if you're not very careful with a young horse, you can make things worse.

HR: What about being a breeder do you most enjoy?
JF: I guess the expectation of continuing your vision and enjoying the animals. I don't have the individual time with the animals anymore that I used to have, but I'd like to get back to that. But I'm writing books and doing research and I've spent a lot of time in the Arab world. This year I spent five weeks in Qatar and some time in Egypt and some time in Kuwait, and it's been like that for the last four years.

HR: What do you least enjoy about it?
JF: Losing an animal. When you don't have control and you can get a veterinarian, it's very, very frustrating.

HR: Do you have any advice for a breeder just starting out?
JF: There are breeders with a capital B and breeders with a small b. If you're going to be a Breeder, that means you have a long-term commitment. Try to visit as many people as you can who know something, who've had a longevity in it — who are known as breeders. You might not like what they're breeding, but it's always good to see what they've accomplished and how they've accomplished it. Maybe some of the principles they've used would be relative to the principles you want to use.
No man is an island; you have to hope there are others doing the same thing you like. But you also have to celebrate the diversity within the breed. So keep an open mind. That's the most important thing. Listen to what people have to say. And study. Learn as much as you can. Then you have to get your feet wet. Don't jump in too fast; start off small. Make sure that what you do is as close to right as it can be.

HR: Are there people not suited to it?
JF: Absolutely. It takes somebody who can deal with the emotions of loss. Because it's a constant. If you love something and lose it, you can't say, "I'm going to get out of this because I've lost something." You have to be a bit thick-skinned. It's not for the faint hearted — if you're going to be in it for the long run. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent foaling out mares and cleaning out stalls — I've done everything I've ever asked anybody to do on this farm, and probably more.

HR: What do you think is your most important skill?
JF: My husband and I both worked at this. Don's been extremely supportive. We started out together with it. Certain aspects have put me more in the forefront. He loves horses; he's been very supportive in the building and running of the farm. I think that's extremely important if you're a couple.
I've seen many marriages break up over horses — many. Because one will love it more than the other and the other gets jealous of the time that's spent and maybe the expenses. It needs to be a partnership, or there needs to be a real understanding before they get into it that it won't drive a wedge.

HR: What's most important to you right now?
JF: To finish this book. It's a sequel to The Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, which is used kind of as a bible throughout the world. This will be Authentic Arabian Bloodstock II. It's a history of this farm and its principles. It's a reference book of what this farm has produced, which will be valuable to people all over the world who have these bloodlines. I kind of built it around a dream.

HR: Which was?
JF: When I was 3 years old, my father and mother put me on a pony I saw as we were driving down the highway. That was where it all began: with the dream of having my own horses and having a farm. I've tried to write this book by incorporating that love as a primary motivating force and to approach it from an artistic standpoint, as the art of breeding. And then to give the background of a lot of the ancestors and the dreaming of the perfection, which was Halim Shah. Then sharing this. I'm trying to show the spread of what it takes from the beginning to the realization. And I'm trying to get across the dedication, the love and the realization.
And after you realize it, what you do with it — you keep striving for perfection. And you can only perfect something if you're willing to share it. Because you have to let go. If you don't share something with others, where are you going to find someone down the road when you need something that you haven't been able to do but somebody else has the vision?

HR: Did you have any real hard years?
JF: The first years were extremely hard because we started out with three babies, and we were living overseas. We were still traveling and newly married and we didn't have a big nest egg. We lived in some of the rat holes of the world to be able to sustain our horses.

HR: Any final wisdom?
JF: A smaller breeder can have just as much fun as a Capital-B Breeder and enjoy the many pleasures of riding their horses or selling their horses or showing their horses. There are so many opportunities, no matter which way you want to commit yourself. You don't even have to be a breeder; you can go out and buy one or two horses and just enjoy them. But be committed to what you do; be committed to do the best you can for the breed you represent.