A Conversation With...Show Judge Linda Norton-Neely

When it comes to judging horse shows, Linda Norton-Neely is about as knowledgeable as anyone in the state. She’s been judging for the past two decades, has judged everything from the Buckskin Worlds in Indianapolis to the Dixie Nationals in Jackson, Miss., and is one of only a handful of AQHA-certified judges in Arkansas.
On Jan. 4-5, Neely will host a two-day open horse show seminar at the 4-H Center in Ferndale for folks who want to learn more about show judging (whether they be competitors or judge-hopefuls). She’s doing a second seminar Jan 11-12 at the Equine Center in Jackson, Miss.
When Roundup editor Lisa Broadwater caught up with Neely — at the Little Rock airport, to be exact — Neely was on her way home to Heber Springs from the Appaloosa World Championships in Fort Worth. Before that, she had spent a week in Modena, Italy, judging a major Quarter horse show. And before that...well, suffice it to say, she was on the road (she judges between 38 and 50 shows a year).

Horsemen’s Roundup: Is there anywhere you haven’t been?
Linda Norton-Neely: Very few places. I love going to Europe. My favorite is Italy. The people are so much fun and they’re laid-back.

HR: Why did you get into judging?
LN: I had had a big training center in Pine Bluff. I specialized in all the classes for youth. I grew up showing. I was born in South Texas and grew up in Colorado, then moved to California and got married, moved back to Colorado. I kind of got away from horses for a while.
Then I got divorced. I had two children, was in Pine Bluff and opened the stable and started training and giving lessons. Then I got thrown and got my knee hurt real bad, and was getting real burned-out on training, so I rented out my barn and started working for a veterinarian. A couple of years went by, and I decided I wanted to get back into it. I had been judging open shows [those open to all breeds] for about eight years. I didn’t want to deal with the public and have the training stable and all that, so I went for my AQHA card, and then the other breeds kind of followed.

HR: What was there about it you enjoyed?
LN: I get real satisfaction out of seeing a good horse and a good rider coming together.

HR: Do you have a speciality, in terms of what you think you’re best at judging?
LN: Probably Western Pleasure and Cutting, because I rode cutting for a long time and I’ve judged it longer than any of the others.

HR: And the number of judges differs from show to show?
LN: Yes. In Quarter, you can have one or two judges. In other breeds, you can have up to four judges at a time. If you have four, it’s considered like four different shows. So you’re accumulating points under each judge.

HR: What’s the thinking behind having multiple judges?
LN: To give your exhibitors a chance to accumulate more points at one time rather than having four different shows over four different weekends with four expenses.

HR: What makes a good judge?
LN: I think probably integrity has a lot to do with it.

HR: Well, it IS totally subjective.
LN: Very much so. You can really tell when there’s some hanky-panky going on.

HR: Which does happen?
LN: Which does happen.
You also have to have a real good feel for people, to be able to communicate with people with your gestures and your manner and how you approach them for a class.

HR: You interact with each exhibitor?
LN: A lot of times, yes. Say, in an Amateur Youth Halter class, I’ll speak to everyone when I go by.

HR: You stop and talk to them about their horses?
LN: No, you just acknowledge them.

HR: So it’s about treating them with respect?
LN: Yes. So many judges will just walk right past you and never say a word and have real sour faces.

HR: I would think that to judge so many different shows, you’d have to have a lot of information in your head; you have to know every rule, every pattern....
LN: You do. You have basically the same rules for all the different breeds. BUT there are instances where every breed is different in a few of the classes. Before a show the next day, I look at the showbill and see what classes there are, and then I go through my rule book and read it — no matter how much I THINK I know it.
We go to a Quarter horse seminar every two years to further our education. And we go to the Color Breed Council, which are the other breeds, that we are required to go to every three years.

HR: Can you just put out a sign and call yourself a judge?
LN: No. You have to go through each association’s testing procedure. And then you can’t advertise that you’re a judge. You have to be asked. You can’t advertise in a magazine; they say that’s soliciting.

HR: And that’s bad because?
LN: Perception.

HR: How long have you been teaching other people?
LN: Off and on, a lot. But I’m really just getting started in the seminar thing. And that’s looking really good. Because I just talked to some people in Michigan that have a new company, Extreme Products, that has all kinds of shampoos and stuff for horses. I’m talking to them about videotaping the seminar and having it in a series for people who can’t attend.

HR: What makes a bad judge?
LN: Some of the worst judges I’ve come across either don’t feel knowledgeable or they aren’t knowledgeable in certain areas and they make up for that by having a chip on their shoulder. I think it stems from not having the confidence they need or the knowledge they need.

HR: So you have to be able to back up your decisions..
LN: Oh sure. Sometimes you might have to back it up on the national level. If you have a protest...

HR: That happens?
LN: Yes. A lot of time you get disgruntled exhibitors. Or you have some who get mad because they don’t know why they haven’t won. That’s another thing this seminar does: It teaches you what is a good trotting horse, what’s a good loping horse?

HR: How has showing changed since you started?
LN: Each event has gotten so specialized. You used to have a horse you could take out and show in all the events, but now you don’t.

HR: A lot of people I talk to bemoan that loss — having the one great horse.
LN: Right.

HR: And that’s a lot harder than having a horse who can do one thing.
LN: Right.

HR: Then why isn’t the goal to have a versatile horse?
LN: Well, I think they’ve specialized the breeding so much. For example, the Pleasure horse today isn’t built to do a lot of the things that a Reining horse can do. And they’ve bred into the Halter horse this massiveness that they’re not able to go and ride them; they’re so muscle-bound that they’re not pretty movers.
And the training has gotten so specialized too. When I was training, you’d bring me a horse and I would teach him Trail, Pleasure, whatever. But now, you have a Reining horse trainer, a Trail trainer, a Halter trainer.

HR: Do you think that’s a good trend?
LN: Not necessarily. But I don’t see it changing.

HR: Why not? It seems everything goes in cycles.
LN: I really don’t see it changing. Now, they’ve come out with a new class called Ranch Versatility, which is like the ranch horse that can do everything. They’ll have a reining pattern; they’ve got to rope, they’ve got to go through a trail course; you know, everything they do on a ranch. And that goes back more to the foundation type.

HR: Has what you’re looking for in a horse and rider changed over the years?
LN: Not particularly. I used to place and buy a lot of children’s horses. And the very first thing you look for is disposition. And that’s what I look for in all my horses; I don’t care what they’re doing.

HR: What do you want?
LN: I want one that’s good minded (meaning he accepts things well), very calm. I still like to see the same thing I always liked to see in Pleasure. They just move a little differently than they used to.

HR: There are some who say they’re not moving naturally anymore.
LN: They’re not. But the ones I like are still moving the way they should. They’ve gotten them so artificial.

HR: Why?
LN: You go back to what we call peanut rollers.

HR: Which started because?
LN: Because Mr. Joe Blow who’s high up on the totem pole won the Congress with his horse doing that way. “And, boy, if he can win that big show doing it that way, then I need to get my horse to do it that way.”

HR: Why can’t we get back to something more natural?
LN: We’re getting there.

HR: I would think it would take the judges for a change.
LN: It does.

HR: So is there a movement to get it back?
LN: There is. See, we finally got their head back up — pretty well. Now, we have the artificial gait. I stopped a Quarter horse show in Florida. Because there’s a statement in Quarter horses you can read that says, “We want to see forward motion.” So I stopped them — none of them were going anywhere. I told them, “I asked for forward motion; that’s what I want, and I want it now.”

HR: And?
LN: They did it!

HR: Is that the most disconcerting trend at shows?
LN: It is.

HR: Are there others that need work?
LN: I see some problems ahead for some Reining horses if they don’t correct the neck placement — it’s so low. Some of them are SO intimidated; just like your Pleasure horses.
And how do you get a horse’s head down like that? You’re mean and cruel to them.

HR: Until you get total submission?
LN: Right.

HR: Which isn’t good for anybody...
LN: No. I believe in discipline; I believe in strict discipline. But it goes back to whether you’re being a disciplinarian or you’re stepping over that bounds into cruelty.

HR: Of course, I hear all kinds of tales about the methods required to get these horses to do the things they do.
LN: That’s one reason I quit riding Pleasure horses.

HR: Can you tell when someone gets in the arena...
LN: Oh, you can tell when a horse is intimidated.

HR: And that means they’ve been abused?
LN: Yes. They’ve been snatched and jerked down so many times, they’re afraid.

HR: So what do you do?
LN: I don’t place them. You can tell if a horse has his head down low because it’s natural or because he’s scared to death. I’d have my head down low too if I went through that!

HR: Is that ever discouraging — knowing what it takes to get some of these horses ready to show?
LN: Yeah, it is. I feel like, if I have to do that to a horse, I don’t want that horse. I’m gonna go out and buy me one that doesn’t have to have all that.

HR: But if you talk to some people who do it, it’s just a part of the business.
LN: Yeah, that’s why I quit. I was doing very well showing, and then when this trend came of the peanut rollers and I wasn’t placing anywhere, I said, “Nope. I’m out of here; no way I’m gonna do that.”

HR: What are your biggest shows? Do you judge the same ones every year?
LN: No. I’ve judged the Paint World show (in Fort Worth), Paint Youth World show, Palomino World show (in Tulsa), Palomino Youth world show. I used to be president of the Palomino association.
I’ve judged the Pinto worlds (in Tulsa), the App nationals (in Oklahoma City), the Buckskin worlds (in Indianapolis and in Wichita).

HR: What are some common mistakes that people make when showing?
LN: One of the most common is not knowing how to keep their placement where the judge is able to see them, if it’s on a rail class.

HR: If you’re not assertive, you could easily get lost in the pack...
LN: Right. You may have the best horse in the arena, but if you can’t get him shown — if you’re covered up all the time — that’s your problem. And you need to get instruction on how to present yourself to the judge. Because it all goes back to perception: If they can’t see you, you can’t win.

HR: What else?
LN: Especially in your Showmanship class — where you’re being judged as the handler of the horse and come in and do a pattern — you’ve got to show confidence. And in Pleasure, too.

HR: What’s the hardest thing about judging for you?
LN: Making sure I maintain a consistency all the way through the show of placing the same type of horses that I like all the way through.

HR: Since every judge is looking for something different, what should an exhibitor do?
LN: The classes that are most subjective are Showmanship. Because each one of us has our own idea of what we really like. And even though they might do everything correctly, I might have a little idiosyncrasy about what you’re doing while the other judge might not. Most of the time, if you get some criticism, it’s “We don’t know what the judge is looking for in that class.” Whereas in the other classes, if they’re consistent, you can pretty well figure out what they like and what they don’t.

HR: So you recommend they figure out what the judges are looking for and then strive for that?
LN: That would be a good way to do it. You’d be surprised how many people keep a diary on each judge.

HR: Do the same judges appear again and again?
LN: Not necessarily. I usually don’t go back to a show the next year; I maybe skip a year. The show management would rather have it that way.

HR: Your seminar isn’t just for potential judges; it’s for people who want to understand judging?
LN: Right. And if you understand the judging and how we arrive at what we’re looking for, then you’ll know how to present yourself to the judge. And if their horse isn’t doing what we’re looking for, then they need to do something that’s different. A lot of people don’t realize that even looking at videos of what that horse is doing is important.

HR: Can you show seriously without videotaping yourself?
LN: I don’t think so. You’ve got to look at yourself and be critical so that you can improve. I think probably 99 percent of people do it. And on the big shows, there’s always a video person there who will sell you a video.
But the seminar is for exhibitors who want to know what the judges are looking for, it’s for exhibitors who are thinking about going into judging and it’s a place for judges to go to advance their education on hearing what the exhibitors are saying and interacting with what the other judges are saying. It’s a basic learning tool. You can’t advance if you don’t get out there and learn.

HR: What’s the latest a show you’ve judged has run?
LN: Until 4 o’clock in the morning.

HR: How do you do that?
LN: You get like a robot. That’s why a lot of the Quarter horse shows have gone to two days — a split combined over two days with two judges — and it really helps. But most shows are one day.

HR: What’s the best way to deal with the judge — do you tip your hat, acknowledge them, ignore them?
LN: You deal with the judge naturally. Don’t overdo, either way.
In the showmanship, I always try to ask before the class, “Are there any questions? Now’s the time to ask.” A lot of times, they’ll raise their hands and ask for a clarification.

HR: Do people ever argue with you or refuse to accept your decision?
LN: Sometimes. But the breed shows won’t let an exhibitor talk to you without going through the ring steward. And you have the option of talking to them or not. I don’t mind talking to them.

HR: But there are judges who won’t?
LN: Yes. One thing I wish more exhibitors would do is after the Showmanship class, we always break for lunch (so they’re have time to tack up for their English classes), and I’ll tell them a lot of times, “If you have any questions on why I placed you where I did, come see me.” Because I have it all right there.

HR: How stressful is it to be a judge?
LN: I don’t find it stressful. It’s very intense for me because you’re focused all day.

HR: Are there times when you’re one of multiple judges that you look over at one and think, ‘What the hell were you thinking?”
LN: Oh, yeah (laughs). Most of the time when that happens — if I place one first and they don’t even use it — either they’ve made a mistake that I haven’t seen or they didn’t like the horse. But usually they’ll say something to you, like “Oh, that horse missed a lead back there” or “I just didn’t like that horse.” But that doesn’t make him wrong or me right. There are some judges who just don’t agree with what I like and I don’t agree with what they like.

HR: Is there anything an exhibitor can do to change a vote?
LN: No, once you write down your card and send it in, there’s no changing. I don’t care if you make a mistake. And every judge has made a mistake. If they tell you different, they’re lyin’ to ya. And we feel awful when it happens.
I made a really big boo-boo one time, and it was in a big show. It was in the Trail class, and I had my scores going across and when I went to transpose them on my judging card, I missed this girl completely. And she was my winner. I had used the number below her.
Here I am out there about ready to die. The three other judges gave her first, and she’s not anywhere on my card. And she had a beautiful ride. So I’m sweatin’ bullets. And I know the people.
So when I got home, I called. I told her, “I just wanted to call you and apologize for what I did.” She ended up winning it overall, so it wasn’t awful. But I could have just died. I dwelt on that the whole rest of the show.
And every once in a while, like in Reining, you’ll miss something — you might miss whether they did the right amount of spins or not enough spins. You really have to focus on that. I don’t know of anyone who hasn’t made that mistake. But I tell people, “We’re human; we do things like that.” And we feel bad about it, but we can’t change it once we turn that card in.

HR: How much does the whole dressing-swanky aspect factor in? You can spend a lot of money looking good...
LN: You can spend a fortune. But when it gets down to the nitty-gritty, if you’ve got a really good horse out there, you want to look nice and tailored and everything. But one thing I DO NOT like to see are some of these non-pros in these glittery outfits.
Now, the youth, they can wear all that (laughs). So many equestrian shirts are so pretty now, I think they can do away with a lot of the glitter. And as far as having a lot of silver on the saddle, I couldn’t care less. Sure, it looks pretty and is nice and everything. But when it gets down to a silver saddle over another saddle, I’ll take the better horse over one with the silver on it.

HR: Do you have any advice for having a good show experience?
LN: Go with an open mind that if you have a good ride, then you’ve had a good day.

HR: But it’s not about that...
LN: Well, it can be. And it should be. If you think you’ve had a good ride, and you’ve improved from your last ride, even though you might not have won anything, you should be happy with that. Because you’re improving. You always want to try to improve.